What eventually broke the culture of secrecy and protection? I dont know. But before we begin, I just want to take a minute to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. And something else that you mentioned about the board, which I found fascinating was that the Willow Creek board had an awful lot of lawyers on it. He currently leads a multi-faceted media ministry called Telling the Truth which he shares with his parents Stuart and Jill Briscoe. Pete reminds us that our goal is not to win arguments, but to win people. And theres a lot of people asking, Is that just too great a burden to ever put on one person? How do you respond to that? There was another documented case where he had oral sex with his assistant back in the 90s at WC. For the next 90 minutes, Pete Briscoe enraptured us with his presentation of The Bema.. I did live it. Get new articles and breaking news delivered to your inbox. Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Part II, Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Escaping & Healing from Abusive Churches, Part 2, https://world.wng.org/sites/default/files/issues/pdf/world_sep012018.pdf, https://www.billionbibles.com/voice-of-the-martyrs.html. Board members selected in such a way are unlikely to honor their fiduciary duty ahead of their desire to please the board chairman or senior pastor. You know, Hybels daughter had her own book on Oprahs book club. And while youre at it, wed really appreciate it if you help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. These are people that may be in the cubicle next to you at work, who have an acuity for blending in to normal life. I think one of the ways that Willow tried to reckon with the situation was to permit Bill Hybels to retire from his role at the church. At the urging of a friend working in the radio industry, the Briscoes followed God's leading and used the tape sales proceeds to purchase local radio time, which launched Telling the Truth's radio outreach. That is not a matter of policy. Tell us what you learned through you know, bringing this person to light, confronting him and dealing with the entire situation that we can learn from as a church. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Id like to share a few things as we navigate this loss together. Right? This was an excellent interview and elders need to read this interview. David Jankowski. The cover up of his behavior manifested at the elder board level. Stuart and Jill Briscoe have always had a passion for teaching God's Word and speaking Truth into people's hearts and moving them toward God. So, Mitch, how is it that a lawyer from Texas ended up representing victims of sexual harassment at a mega church in Chicago? So as we part ways, let us make the departure sweet. Growing up in a ministry family, Pete watched and learned from his parents and witnessed the reach and power of Telling the Truth 's media outreach. He said, Pete, you should have one lawyer on your board but not more than one. And I believe that there is some really sound wisdom in that. He gave me a few new friends here and there, people to pray with, to share with, to be coworkers in some small ministry, etc. And yet, when these issues started being raised about Bill Hybels, the larger church, other than you know, a few people you mentioned the Ortbergs, for example, they came forward and spoke. But this certainly raises red flags. I know from hearing from men, that that Bill abused men emotionally, spiritually while they were working there. Thank God I have Jesus. So its more than flirty words or suggestions. Hes one of the good guys. Its my understanding that was a watershed moment. And Ive been a critic of megachurch multi-site model. WebPete Briscoe, Stuart and Jills youngest son, was a key contributor to the ministrys teaching team from 2003 to 2021. Fortunately, we have not had so much as one complaint about any one of our pastors or staff members. It manifested at the Human Resources level. I mean, its an accurate criticism of people within the church. You know, I believe in spiritual strongholds and things like that. At the same time. I think he lost it. But theres something wrong in the whole business of Church. He has been married to Jill for more than 59 years and has three children and 13 grandchildren. They wont produce any vanilla beans. Thats a bad default state. I agree, Pastor Bob. I learned that from Bill. I think these women would still like to know the answer to that. The other woman that Mitch represented will remain confidential but both these cases enabled Mitch to peek behind the curtain at Willow Creek and view upclose some of the dysfunctions that led to that scandal. He is with us today to talk about growing communication skills to improve preaching as well as how we can find deeper fulfillment in our work and lives. I know the owners Dan and Kurt Marquart personally, and I can say without reservation that they truly run their business with honesty, integrity and transparency. So you can go to Amazon and enter in Boz Tchividjian and his book will pop up but you need to know what youre looking for because people who are sexual predators, they have an acuity for blending into society in ways that they dont stand out like this is not like, you know, the sexual predator in your church is not some, you know, grease ball sitting outside your kids ministry just kind of looking for a way to get at, like, thats our common image of what a sexual predator is. You have to have a strong culture of accountability. Put a skin tag on it or a flesh tag. What I need most is what I dont have. Much has been written on establishing criteria for board member selection. Churches sometimes need advocates outside their system. And I think theres a kind of an old guard of megachurch pastors and leaders that think that theyre above accountability and theyre beginning to realize theyre not. Briscoe stepped down as senior pastor at the end of 2000 but remained involved in the church and active in overseas missions. Please know you are not alone. I was a member of WCCC for many years. Vonda was at one time the director of Willow Creeks vocal ministry, and she was one of the first women to come forward and speak publicly about Bill Hybels alleged sexual misconduct. I would probably have been among those who defended Bill saying, He couldnt have done these things; Hes too strong of a Christian leader. I see this culture as similar to the Corinthian church with the man who was involved with his fathers wife. Im so glad that theyre godly men like you serving. He even cites a conversation with Darrell Bock, a member who disagrees with the elders but who also says it is not an issue worth dividing over. Pete Briscoe was Senior Pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, TX for nearly 30 years. Keep in touch with Julie and get updates in your inbox! Hes also the chairman of the elder board at a multisite megachurch in Dallas, Texas. I was just trying to build a relationship, or whatever you just go, But I see you for what you are and youre gonna have to go.. We see this is the third article this month youve found worth reading. He even cites a conversation with Darrell Bock, a member who disagrees with the elders but who also says it is not an issue worth dividing over. Please note, our website requires JavaScript to be supported. Hybels at one point had a major conflict with a woman who was serving on the elder board, who was trying to hold him accountable and essentially used a reconciliation process involving some other big names in evangelicalism to essentially run her off, put her under an NDA. Heres my belief, Julie, I think the church at large, the big leaders in evangelicalism, we can name names if we want to, and Im sure that people have names on their mind when theyre hearing this, Why were they silent? I totally agree with you Julie on how I viewed the Clergy and Church growing up. And today Im excited to be speaking with Mitch Little. I know about the deleted emails. Its the biblical admonition, you know, to hold a knife to your throat lest you desire the Kings delicacies. And I have other thoughts about that and how that all worked out. At least, thats how I saw it. Let me give you some examples. But as you say its Gods grace that despite all that hes used these men to bless many, despite everything. And that set the course for some of these more severe things to continue happening, and then to even get more and more severe. It was a huge fixture in evangelicalism. Its something like Child Protection Policies. Yeah. I encourage you to start praying again and trust God to open doors for you in godly and meaningful fellowship. This is a calling. Because they were required to move by unanimity. it is. There were some areas or some some critical times when things could have gone differently, but the elders caved in essence to Bill Hybels. I have plenty of authentic friends just not at church. May you and your family be richly bleSSed!!! It is also the church in which Pete Briscoe, my former wonderful pastor, grew up in. So he said something about so and sos clothing. But essentially, it was the board being asked to deal with matters of policy and then all matters of implementation really get left to the vocational staff in the church. Heres my belief, Julie, I think the church at large, the big leaders in evangelicalism, we can name names if we want to, and Im sure that people have names on their mind when theyre hearing this, Why were they silent? WebPete Briscoe answers that question by pointing us to Paul as the perfect example of one who speaks with tender boldness. Briscoe stepped down as senior pastor at the end of 2000 but remained involved in the church and active in overseas missions. And its so important, I think, for any of us who are doing any kind of ministry at all, if we get our identity wrapped up in what were doing, then what were doing is no longer ministry, its no longer service to the Lord. But you lose the guarding mechanism, which I think in todays in todays cultural moment, its probably the most important aspect of eldering. He has been married to Jill for more than 59 years and has three children and 13 grandchildren. What I do, you know, and what Ministry Watch is doing and what all these independent bloggers are doing, that its bringing accountability. Briscoe Mike is a dear friend and Im sad this day has come. He now coaches Pete Briscoe | Brookfield WI. I would love to see Chicago experience revival. I want to share that God used Petes sermon on not being isolated (Ecclesiastes) in our sons life. It grows on the vanilla orchid, and it only grows in really exotic places like Tahiti, and there are some places in Mexico it grows too, but what is unique about the vanilla orchid is when it blooms, its got to be pollinated within one day. You can read about them at their website Teaching the Truth. At that age, I had never had someone in spiritual authority lie or manipulate me. And my understanding was the elder board set some boundaries for Clinton to be able to come and speak. :), I would strongly urge you to research Voice of the Martyrs. I Basically, theyre a rubber stamp. Amen. And he came back and said, I cant do this anymore.. Im against too many lawyers, and I think Im in a position to critique this. They have to be theyre incredibly convincing. Yeah. And it had all of these allies not just in the media, but among the angelical industrial complex, other megachurch pastors, everything. Well, to answer your question, very bad. And I think you hit the nail on the head. And I could explain why I think thats funny, but you have to have extreme accountability, the larger your platform gets. I just want to say this was not someone who acted on any behavior at our church, but had someone who was in the process of grooming someone else. On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie explores these important questions with Mitch Little, whos not just an attorney for victims. And if you think its not, you know, go and look in your church building right now, if youre quarantined under COVID, or youre not gathering. That nonprofit corporation and its bank accounts, thats not what the biblical church is. There are therapy notes to support her story. Im so grateful now for that heritage. And in the few times Ive spoken with him, I found his insights to be profound. I dont know the answer but rampant clergy abuse just took my discontentment to a whole new level. If anything has a whiff of impropriety, we would jump on it immediately. With distinctly different teaching styles, you'll be moved by the emotional appeal of Jill and the compelling logic of Stuart, as they boldly proclaim God's sovereignty, grace, and love. And this is a huge problem in the Evangelical Church in the southern baptist church, I mean, just absolutely massive problem where so often the predators covered up instead of brought to justice. I hear you say that and I believe in accountability really strongly. Pete has offered to A man who "dedicated his life to sharing Gods Word with the world" has died at the age of 91. Well, I want to turn our discussion to what youve experienced at your own church, which is a multi-site mega church there in the Dallas Fort Worth area, because those are things where youve been able to apply some of these lessons that youve learned from watching the negative example maybe of Willow Creek, youve learned an awful lot from going through crisis at your own church. Bill Hybels and Bill Clinton, you know, developed a friendship over the years that at least what Ive discovered in my research, there was an invitation for Clinton to come and speak at the Global Leadership Summit, and a confrontation with the elder board about that because Clinton was on the heels of an adultery scandal. Its M-I-L-G-R-A-M the Milgram experiment, but basically American researchers were trying to figure out after World War II, why so many in German society were willing to go along with the Nazis or go along with their leadership, do incalculably horrible things to people. With that purpose in mind, they launched theTelling the Truth ministry. What eventually broke the culture of secrecy and protection? WebLearn More About Pete Today - Pete Briscoe God loves you to distraction, There is nothing you can do to make Him love them more or less, And, that Life with this Lover God is rich beyond description, regardless of your performance. Like so many of you, I love Pete. How do we deal with claims of sexual abuse? and I found these people in those imperfect churches! 1 talking about this. That was my upbringing. Later Telling the Truth began airing in several countries in southeast Asia and across 10 countries in southern Africa. How do you recommend searching worth while places to donate too? And another womans situation, theyre in an elder board meeting, and Bill Hybels, you know, has his hand on a womans leg, and no one else can see. Now, I coach pastors and business leaders in communications and self-care. So a young person in our high school ministry. 1 talking about this. And I think Christian leaders need to start stepping up. As I look back on my own four years on staff, Im thankful for the teaching and leadership that Pete Briscoe has brought to Bent Tree, and I know that so many of us have been impacted by his attention to the Lord and quick obedience to however God leads him. Why didnt others support them? The woman had come forwarded, but then later recanted her story. The radio program began to attract listeners and supporters, enabling the ministry to expand its broadcasting to a growing number of stations throughout the United States and abroad. I think it took courage. And yet, they lost the PR battle, which is unbelievable. Then, I did what all good Christian college students did at that time I acquired a boot-leg copy of the drama and listened to it several times on my own. WebBriscoe says that he wants Bent Tree to be a place where people can agree to disagree over this issue. But the thing that was so shocking to me, is that Bill Hy Hybels was the first pastor I had ever seen be so vulnerable from the pulpit. I think the load needs to be shared. And he offers keen insights that are desperately needed as many churches today struggle to be healthy and to avoid the mistakes other megachurches have made. But if you have a pastor with a glaring character flaw youre fooling yourself if you think youre gonna keep that character flaw in line with a pastor who doesnt put Jesus Christ first in his life, am I right? So when you have someone who is trusted, whos supposed to be an expert, you know, like a pastor, like a longtime senior pastor whos supposed to be a theological expert, and someone whos in authority like a senior pastor, people are willing to do things to satisfy that person that they would not otherwise do, even if those things seem harmful to another person. May God lead your next steps and may you find ways to use your gifts from a place of health. And I really was hopeful that there was going to be a public apology, and yet, None. The ministry began in 1971 while Stuart served as senior pastor of Elmbrook Church in Brookfield, Wisconsin, which grew into the largest evangelical church in the state. When you have a woman who says I was molested by a staff member, or you have a staff member who says, Bill Hybels just threw a punch at me, or dog cuts me up and down the hallway, those arent matters of policy, Julie. Can you imagine how many books that sold her? Julie, you may want to review this pointwasnt a problem? It is a collection of people. Amen. And heres what we have to do as people leading churches, okay, you have to understand what the signs of grooming are so one of the things that I did that really helps me, my good friend, Boz Tchividjian, put out a book through his organization G.R.A.C.E. And these men are good actors. Why did so many look the other way for so long? He is with us today to talk about growing communication skills to improve preaching as well as how we can find deeper fulfillment in our work and lives. And where does whats legally expedient for our organization? With distinctly different teaching styles, you'll be moved by the emotional appeal of Jill and the compelling logic of Stuart, as they boldly proclaim God's sovereignty, grace, and love. Because it was lawyers advice, you know, and its like, where does the word of God play into our decision making? I mean, I cant tell you how many stories I heard just like the one that you told the people who said, Well, I was at a conference with Bill Hybels, and he was awful to me. It should be something that he learned from, right? Petes teaching and emphasis on the sufficiency of Christ leaves an indelible mark on so many of our souls. Pete reminds us that our goal is not to win arguments, but to win people. Think about the people whove done it historically, you know, the Chuck Swindolls that I mean, we can we can run off a list of names, we can also run off a list of failures. Theres, theres an advocacy piece to lawyering that needs to be there a little bit, but it doesnt need to be pervasive. Can I talk about Scot McKnight for a second? This is just the way things are in Corinth. The outside investigation report said something along the lines of, Bill Hybels hundreds or thousands of emails with this woman were, not available. Well, as it turns out my understanding from talking to witnesses, those emails were actually destroyed. Ive asked that question many times. I dont think I could survive the corruption I see today had I not seen so much thats good and beautiful in the church growing up. Petes leadership at Bent Tree casts a long shadow with a legacy that will endure. This is what manifests. And we need to start on the work of reconciliation and repentance now. And you have two or three board members who go, I dont think so, they did nothing. Frankly I find church to be excruciatingly lonely. I I mean, that is just huge. The Journal Sentinel reported: Elmbrook resignations are the latest to rock evangelical Christian churches. And that needs to be an elder in the church really any size, you need to say, Look, I see what youre doing this is wrong. And when the person makes excuses or says, You know, this is a misunderstanding, I didnt mean to, you know, message that kid inappropriately online, or I didnt mean to Invite them to go do something by ourselves out of, you know, trying to do something bad. And this is one of the I think exciting things. This is simply a place where I share the message of Gods unadulterated grace through my preaching sermons and bible teaching. Very few. Was there any evidence found that he actually had an affair? WebHi friend, I'm Pete Briscoe. I cant vouch for all the information because I havent researched it myself. Youve youve created a fiction when you organize church, what is a church organization but a legal fiction, right? Yes, I would view it far differently today. And I can only imagine what the economic forces are behind the scenes for that, but it really disappoints me, that that hasnt happened. The church is nondenominational and has woman pastors and elders. And then everyone could say, Oh, how sad that that one person did that one thing. God showed him through that sermon how his trip was actually isolating and began a process of transformation. Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. So Scot, its like the scene in The Avengers when Iron Man just kind of drops out of the sky. Explain that. If you have six members of the Board of eight, lets just say its eight or 10. WebSince that time he has ministered on every continent, written more than 40 books, pastored a church for 30 years, and founded a media ministry called Telling the Truth which now broadcasts daily worldwide. Jill WebHi friend, I'm Pete Briscoe. At the same time, hes writing a book and writing articles for Christianity Today about marriage purity. Because I often wonder what would have happened if he had come back and you know, not been well are not been really able to do his job but said, You know what, Ive got to do this. This is the you know, erither, I need the job, or, This ministry completes me. or whatever, whatever the excuse is. And I saw this at Harvest Bible chapel when I was doing reporting there. Yeah, I think youre gonna be waiting a while. Yeah, without using any names. This is the kind of thing that you would expect from someone whos cruel and not in relationship with Jesus. It took a variety of forms. The news of Petes resignation landed heavy on my heart. In another area, it might be used to groom someone and use vulnerability as a mechanism to draw people into something that is corrupt. Telling another woman, how she looks in a dress and how it accentuates her body, everything up to an alleged affair, to Pat Baronowski, Bill Hybels longtime assistant, stating in the New York Times said Bill Hybels made her obtain pornography and they watched it together. Thats not to say there arent authentic people there. And its pervasive, and people are, theyre using it. To me, Bill did not come across as a predator, flirty or suggestive with women. Not sad or contemplative, but agitated and very irritated. Pete has offered to Below is a link to a PDF of the article World Magazine did on a sex abuse scandal involving VOM. Likewise. They made a lot of friends a lot of money over the years selling books, promoting programs, platforming them at conferences, platforming them at the Global Leadership Summit. James MacDonald was friends with Ed Stetzer. I I attended Willow for seven years. And this is whats so difficult. So I want you to think about this while you know Bill Hybels is being accused of doing awful things by a dozen women. The church is nondenominational and has woman pastors and elders. Manipulative theatrics. Let the Briscoes help you experience Life in all its fullness! Those are the good guys. And the people in this story are complex characters. I dont know. Everyone I knew from childhoodparents, grandparents, pastors, Sunday School teacherswas upright and honest. Fifteen years later, I joined staff at Bent Tree. He now coaches Pete Briscoe | Brookfield WI. The vanilla bean is incredibly hard to harvest. Julie, it is great to be with you again. Guest Bios Show Transcript Spiritual abuse has become an increasingly hot topic, as more and more stories of bully pastors and hyper-controlling, Guest Bios Show Transcript After years spent in an abusive church, how do you heal? Jesus said, I call you My friend. To us, he was Stu, Dad and Poppa and we already miss him achingly." Heres to better days and better church health. Funny, whenever I would watch Bill Hybels preach online or speak at the GLS, and he would go into that quavering voice, tears-in-his-eyes, emotional mode, Id stop listening. In fact, back in the late 80s, early 90s, we went to Willow Creek and we had a wonderful experience. So, while I have strong feelings about this, as you can imagine being a lawyer, but at all points, legal advice has to be subservient to Scripture. Also, major problems. And I thought, I think I knew what he was doing when he named it that, but heres why I think its so ironic. Gifted with wisdom, discernment, and a bit of English humor, the Briscoe's bring God's Word to life. The fact that, I dont know. Pete Briscoe @petebriscoe 12 Dec 2021. Multiple services, being able to do it on cue, proves Hybels theatrical abilitiesI look back and feel sick, given all the details we now know from behind the scenes. For the next 90 minutes, Pete Briscoe enraptured us with his presentation of The Bema.. He was running and we were praying that he would surrender fully to God. So Im guessing youre not against lawyers being on board. Okay, how it didnt bring accountability. Guest Bios Show Transcript Many times, those who have experienced spiritual abuse are retraumatized when they try to speak about whats happened. Absolutely. You know, I think, Julie, the other thing that was really whacked out about Willows elder board, and I didnt find this out until very late in the representation was they operated by design out of unanimity. And I do think theres a spiritual stronghold, I hope and pray that it will be broken in our area. Please contact us or click here to learn more about how to enable JavaScript on your browser. I was the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for nearly 30 years. So since youve seen a lot of this kind of up close and personal through talking to witnesses and elders and staff people, how bad was the abuse at Willow Creek? Okay. Bent Tree is a multi site mega church in the Dallas Fort Worth area thats had its own share of crises over the past several years. Mitch has seen church governance from both the inside and the outside. And so when these things happen, they cant just stay silent. Im good friends with Vonda Dyer, who worked at Willow and was one of the women who bravely came forward with her story about her interactions with Bill Hybels. Hes just an affectionate kind of guy. Lawyer for Bill Hybels Victims Shares Inside Story. I heard an elder once describe his role as a glorified sanitation engineer. And so when you see behaviors that look like grooming, you know, John Calvin, Im not a Calvinist. Pete Briscoe, our pastor at our church came out in support of the Dyers, which was bold, and it was brave. 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