I dont have any answers. Whew! Like it or not thats whats happening. (In less than a year, he has doubled attendance.) The Didache and letters of Ignatius and Clement confirm this, as well as other writings from the early second century. We have millions of church folks in America who say they would die to protect the Bible, but not many actually read it! The present situation has for me the feel of exile and diaspora in the intertestamental period. birdoftheair: Very sobering time for disciples of the living God, our Saviour Lord Jesus. Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. And thats before one adds in the problem of self-deception. RadMan7: Credibility has been diminished. It's literally in his DNA, as his father Jerry is the co-author of the popular LeftBehind series of religious novels. So when I see the original Church held out for a few generations, I think Wow, amazing foundation!. MacDonalds lavish lifestyle drove Thompson to leave the church. As usual, your comments and insight are on the money, Amy Moore. There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and parachurch organizations in the world. Thanks and God bless to all the TWW regulars! Amen to all those who have written shame on you., roebuck: nobody goes there anymore its too crowded. Yogi Berra, Im surprised mega churches ever become crowded since You can observe a lot by just watching. -Yogi Berra. Yes, because he delivered the pew what they wanted in a church experience. The elders would tell people to leave quietly in order to *protect their family. January 19, 2016 Subscribe to Podcast What's in this session? And in January, Moody installed Mark Jobe as the 10 th President of the Moody Bible Institute, replacing Thornton who had served as interim president. Of course, the big jump you and those who make such claims make is from a shepherd/overseer/elder who is to look after, protect and provide for the flock to a paid, authoritarian ruler. Sadly, many have not served well. Samuel Conner: I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). trust God and not your own self. The only reason there is a belief Jesus ministry was three years is because Johns gospel notes three Passovers. It seems to me that there is a serious idolatry issue at HBC. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Most commenters here are members of the Body of Christ there is really only one Church whether they attend HBC or not, they are part of the fellowship there in spirit. (just like Adam hearkening to his wife in the garden huh?) Cudos for your honesty. Trust (Cambridge Dictionary): to believe that someone is good and honest and will not harm you, or that something is safe and reliable. A lot to think about these days! That being said, I would think there is great value in making this public: as a warning for potential future victims of James MacDonald. Or would they even care? And while it is no surprise that these so-called churches, which represent one of the most insidious movements in the history of the Christian Church, are ending in self inflicted destruction we can find some comfort that people who were led astray by them can find solace in other groups of believers who I am sure would welcome them with open arms. Announcements. Study all 66 books of the Bible at Dallas Theological Seminary. TS00: Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. John: When I now go to a church, I want to speak with elders. Now this is a dichotomy because we are speaking about faith because we cannot know all facts of God, but what is done on this earth is grounded in facts and with witnesses. All our campuses gathered together for three consecutive Saturdays of the summer Ravinia style. It will not be revealed to any of the flock members that they are paying for SM and then to transfer over $1M a yr to the head pastor. he has no tore proof to offer me. Why? Even during confusion, never-ending drama, attacks and 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. blameless Harvest launched a radio show; founded a Christian school with over 700 students; built its own retreat center; produced feature-length films; wrote its own worship songs; and created its own. He is my Fortress (part 2) Posted on July 11, 2009 by Jeff Block. It is long past time Jenkins spoke up. Praise God for TWW and other watchblogs who do their best to get the word out on these guys, but you cant stop the spiritually illiterate from attending their exciting churches. Too bad there is not a single human being on the planet that is qualified. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. Culty. So be careful, dont shoot before you think. Truly hope you get peace and joy soon. Releasing a letter to a select few was a half measure response. There was no glory or wealth in being a shepherd, once one of the more despised positions due to its lowliness. Jeff Chalmers And that tattoo you should seriously get it removed. mostly because God doesnt need professional christians and their institution in the first place. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. You cant express truth sufficiently in religious teachings and traditions; it can only be found in a relationship with Christ. elastigirl: Honest question: why does it matter what Paul thinks? You have not fully recognized the level of evil that you eagerly participated in in order to promote yourself riding on the coattails of a famous narcissist and personally enrich yourself unrighteously with tithes that the New Testament does not even teach. By creating offices and appointing people to them, we actually kind of circumvent that innate wisdom, we say this here guy has the title, hes the one, even if hes actually all facade and no substance. You have any lies and untrue rumors to highlight that are being spread here, out with them. Amy Moore: Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. Ive never felt a humbling that felt particularly good, at least short-term. I can hardly stand to read that section in my Bible, much less watch it acted out. Im a witness that almost everything you re reading and hearing is true.. Lord knows we need a fundamental change in the selection of leaders for the Body of Christ and an accountability system in place to keep the charlatans at bay. Shame on you. But adding the concept of God to the mix , *God is inhabiting the warm water, so im mystically being helped by it and on my way to becoming a Superhero for God. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. Max:in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture.I dont see the point in saying that you are a Christ-follower if you dont get to know Him through reading His Word. I have purposely maintained my distance from my current pastor for that very reason. If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit. If a church tries to appoint elders who dont meet the qualifications for eldershipthe church dies. i think we could analyze this for days, weeks, months. And today we have 50 year old churches that went afowl 45 years agothey may have all of the teminology down and believe they are the magisterium protecting the truth, but they are dead and Gods Spirit has left. The Niles Campus became our third location in 2004. I call it B.S. Or an attempt to conceal more? Because I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. ++++++++++++++. Indeed. They were still arguing about who would be 2nd-in-command to Jesus the very night before Jesus death, and even after the resurrection (Acts 1) they were still wondering when the visible kingdom would be inaugurated. We have partnered with Grace Theological Seminary and Chicago Partnership to move onward in equipping leaders to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The mega-masters vocalize Jesus occasionally and even talk about Him from a gospel vantage point. We started as a group of 18 people, who gathered from five different churches across the northwest suburbs and desired to form a new church. 1. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them at allit was all a grand illusion. Dallas Jenkins: Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. I pray that God will continue to use you to shine a spotlight on wicked works of darkness in Christendom today. You might find people here are a lot more willing to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with. More Events. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. He was also involved with setting up secret retirement accounts and encouraging outrageous T&E expenditures as a way of making himself invaluable to James. At this point, Im not so sure that the church, as it is now manifested, is the keeper of pure Truth at all. Here is a short article describing the NT words used for the offices: They been negotiating a retirement package before all the properties foreclose and theres no more cash! If they couldnt get it right after three years of intensive time with Jesus, what chance do we have? What in the world is going on? After a while, he and his band of yes-men elders drifted farther from the Main Thing, allowing the main thing to be about them and schemed in the shadows to preserve their ministry. I personally doubt that MacDonald was ever sincere, but it is likely that many of his deceived henchmen were. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. Based on my 70-year snapshot of the institutional church, theres a vast difference in what Christ describes vs. what we have put together in this thing we call church. We all are that person which is why we still need Jesus daily to save us from our continuing sin patterns in our life. Its life giving. Why is any pastor allowed to act like this? whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. The days of intermediaries are over, and we all have access to the very Spirit of God to lead us personally as he desires us to go. It didnt reveal anything new. My family get in my face from time to time over it. It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. THEY are the ones who the Lord calls upon to should humbly shepherd the flock. Jeepers we were fools! they are kind. It makes you wonder what is in it for them to stay silent, or worse yet, to openly argue that the truth they were willing to report in secret should not be used to stop the victimization of hundreds of thousands of innocent Christians. all of this is deeply regrettable. I rather doubt that they were able to get it right in the end. In the face of authoritarian church leaders who excommunicate, run off or demonize anyone who dares to challenge their false authority and/or iniquity, blogs have filled the void of public accountability. Those extra-Biblical portions comprise 95% of what's been in the show thus far, according to Jenkins, but that and everything else is still run through a proofing process involving scholars of the Bible and people in full-time ministry to make sure it is in harmony with what's in Scripture. God bless, Law Prof. My heart goes out to you. Ego-stroking that includes WOMAN, SUBMIT!!!! You wanted your letter to remain in the dark and hoped that no one would know of your hidden statement. Known for its racial and economic diversity, the congregation moved into a converted warehouse in Rolling Meadows, Illinois, in 1995. Usually being replaced by a building program or a new strategic plan or a new school blah blah blah. At that time, very little about Dallas Jenkins' problematic theology and other unbiblical issues with The Chosen were publicly known. a lover of what is good We all know who to go to who can explain the meaning of a passage with more insight than anyone else. The big issue I have is with the idea that there is this one leader, a high office that this one guy occupies in a church called the pastor. Notice how you need to be part of this first hand, and not from a distance like on the world wide web for even unbelievers to see. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. But as long as theres sin, there will be plenty of work to do to shine a light in the dark places of Christendom. It seems fairly common that if the truly informed Reformed do not return to their faith in a God who loves all men they eventually end up atheists. Faith Driven Team September 6, 2021 Bio, Christian investor, Voice. The movie is being produced by Vertical Church Films, a new film-making branch of the Elgin-based megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with its estimated $2 million budget underwritten by the. Over time, the North Shore church family found they needed a place for weekday ministries. A flock without herdsmen will quickly go astray. Bidding me still to fight on. where leaders humbly look around for those whom they can help, trying to be the last, not the first, putting their reputations, careers, and lives on the line if necessary Nice list. dee: along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. Thats too deep to answer. Once fear grasps and security is sought, the ability and desire to do the right thing and think critically becomes nearly impossible when it means you too could be hurt or humbled. Who are you to tell people to shut up anyway? Some of that was probably bad stuff that was always phony, that Im glad is gonebut Im sure some of it was good stuff that, far as I know, died years ago. Dont let the hypocrisy of men lessen your trust in God. ME MAN! 1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. View All. Talk is cheap lets see some action. Thats all it takes, my friend. (which for me is the whole idea. Jesus was dismayed by self-seeking among His disciples; he who would be great among you must become the servant of all.. of good behaviour One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. They arent slated to start until May, and the people who have heard about it are begging him to start it sooner. Here are some fun and easy strategies to make the most of every moment of your Bible study. Craig French: Thanks for confirming the authenticity of the content, Dallas. And you dare to point your finger at TWW participants, and courageous Dee? Hes earned his money, You will come closer to finding the genuine in third-world countries where the persecuted church resides. Every jot and every tittle is just as if the Almighty is still thundering out of Horeb through Paul. THis man should never be in a position of authority again, and even less in one of spiritual authority (whatever that may mean). The church (ecclesia) had little say in eldership or pastor. No more circumcision. It is also pure, and I would say faulty, assumption to state that the main issue is that the flock will quickly go astray. Jmac is an uncare bear, so is Dallas Jenkins for that matter. The true believers need to either find a local church or seek spiritual counseling because they have a VERY warped sense of church. We have versions of truth and half-truth at best in most places, allowing a theological DNA to supersede the real thing. Were certainly no better in terms of our basic humanity, but we may have the benefit of a lot of hindsight. yup, great biblical example here! Then in great heresy he says Mormons have the same Jesus as evangelicals! I just think some people do not care one tiny little bit about what the Lord said. Friend: I dont have a huge problem with the idea of multiple leaders who put their necks on the line like the people in the early church serving others, and because theyre typically older and recognized as more kind and stable and servant-like, people are told to consider seriously what they have to say (about the best translation of the word unfortunately translated obey in HEB 13:17. Since you supposedly know *the truth* why dont you do what I try to do with each post? Check out the Stronger Mens Conference In reality, it lost about $29,000. This has been going on now for 12 years. Some things are not. Same thing church leaders told Mars Hill members after Driscolls exit and Willow Creek after Hybels exit. The Riverside-based Harvest Christian Fellowship will be joining the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant body that has about 15 million members.The Rev. I was a strong donor who loved the church and served in multiple areasI was in a good place spirituallybut I didnt meet the qualifications. The evidence points to a scam designed to benefit one person only. The churchs vision was to plant 10 churches in 10 years. By 2002, our church-planting ministry Harvest Bible Fellowship (HBF) was formed, and ten churches were plantedin just four years! As God himself never forces anyone to believe in him, or acknowledge the Truth, we cannot expect to be able to persuade others to see what, to us, seems so obvious. TS00: What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? After seven years, the growing congregation of 500 raised funds in six weeks to secure a former warehouse at 800 S Rohlwing Road in Rolling Meadows. Samuel Conner: wonder whether part of the problem lies in the theological DNA of the Western-derived traditions. Greg Laurie Feb 27, 2023 Harvest Online Worship Resources Our online church worship resources are designed to help you know God deeper and engage with His word on a whole new level. It is somewhat inevitable, as their theology asserts that the lost are not so much lost as rejected and doomed by eternal decree from the get go. The Apostles warned us this would happen and to be on guard, but we havent done much about it. And I know I post too much. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. able to teach Gateway is the church that planted Driscolls new The Trinity Church in Scottsdale and they are the ones transferring him cash each year since to keep it afloat and charging that to Global Missions expense. Jimmy & Gateway Sr Lead Pastor Robert Morris are two of only three Elders over Mark Driscolls church. Thompson started questioning MacDonalds spending in 2006, when he saw the pastors home in Inverness featured in Chicago magazine. VCB became Vertical Worship and currently has more than 20 songs in the CCLIs Top 500 Songs Sung in US Churches, including Open Up the Heavens and Yes, I Will.. and purportedly, eternity depends on each individual institution and the collective one. Harvest Bible Chapel Jan 2010 - Dec 20178 years Greater Chicago Area Led media team, producing movies, short films, and large-scale videos. Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? part of it a fear of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church environments. It feels like Im eaten away inside. Dont get me wrong, Pauls writings have many great and wonderful things to say, but when the descriptive gets blurred with the universally prescriptive, what results is just another destructive ideology. A pastor or shepherd is one who devotes themselves to the care of the flock which is placed under his control. . I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. His newest outreach into the community is that he will be partnering with a music minister from another local church and they are starting a church service in a bar on Sunday evenings. this time facilatated by the internet, just like the last one was with the printing press.. Well, age doesnt always equal wisdom, but it helps! This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. They kept +/-$170,000 in credit card payment from campers in the general fund and showed it as revenue. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? it must be protected. dee: Its like dj vu all over again. -Yogi Berra, When you come to a fork in the road, take it. -Yogi Berra. What are sheep to do? Then, you proceeded to brag on social media about how you werent releasing your full statement and had convinced other men with statements to do the same. We have seen God continue to change lives through the people and ministries of our church. . Rich: I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. Both HBC and WBC had a plurality of Yes-Men Courtiers around a Pastor/Dictator O COME LET US ADORE HIM!. Was it released or leaked? (ive mentioned my thoughts on this many times here & there at TWW, so apologies to one and all for yet another one. Worse, I believe this shows arrogance on Dees part And believe you me Unless you give facts and verifiable information how do we know this is not part of a plan to cover things up? Temptation sharp and keen. If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit.No longer do I feel like I know, or need to know, or could even remotely grasp the answers to so much of life. I understand He loves us to infinity as my 6 year old likes to say, but it sure wouldve been nice if pastor had given parents of small children some kind of warning. Muff Potter: And if they refuse to see that these guys are nothing more than carnival barkers and mountebanks? To this day I feel used, abused, and very stupid for not catching on. And what is love? These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things (that will probably never happen) to keep the men coming. +++++++++++++++. Some comments lead to some questions. God doesnt need Harvest and in fact Id be willing to say the spirit of Jezebel has been leading that place since the early 2000s. Lured by the hope of sitting someday at the right hand of The Man JMac, not Jesus. into playing a role in a conspiracy they do not even grasp. Dallas, you helped run an organization that prospered because of its public image which you helped create. Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be. id say you are beholden to the public to explain to them with all transparency. There is no question that MacDonald was running the elders. In preparation for the milestone anniversary of 30 years, it seemed fitting to host all our campuses together for Good Friday and Easter Sunday at the Sears Centre Arena. Dallas Jenkins: commenting from anonymous online handles. you mentioned earlier, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. Someone needs to write an article about the fake church watchdog industrial complex, including but not necessarily limitied to ECFA, MinistrySafe, Best Christian Workplace Institute. The idea of going back to church for real makes me nauseous. Check her Twitter. Friend: What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. People were dying for this faith from the very beginning, which suggests that it was not merely wishful thinking about some made up traditions. In reality, if the undeniable evidence leads to the sad realization that our most beloved parent, spouse, child or pastor is not who we have believed them to be, we must be willing to deal with the facts. Example: I use my actual name on Twitter. Law Prof: needs to go read the Bible I just think some people do not care one tiny little bit about what the Lord said. Making vague accusations like that is true slander. 5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. It certainly didnt protect anyone. Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. Ken F (aka Tweed):if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. Many parents contacted the school about it, and it was one of the first of many, many issues that arose there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48. If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. I knew of one really good church in Chapel Hill (Chapel Hill Bible Church) for years ago. Reported that Camp Harvest lost over $200,000 in 2016. (Many self-claimed Reformed do not really know or embrace the God their theology demands, so its not an issue.) Those who did not succumb were pushed out. But Dallas, that is not the case here. He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. Im working with a couple of other groups and IMO progress is being made. Remember when we videotaped us all playing The Name Game? im proud to be human. Please think about all the others who will fall under these cultic practices if these perpetrators and their deeds are not brought into the open. but now that theyre all in different places, what does each mean now? Its amazing. In celebration, we hosted Summer Revival at our Elgin campus. Confession is good for the soul. What deceivers do, in the church as well as other man-made institutions, is infiltrate this natural system, substituting charismatic charlatans for genuinely mature and godly elders. We will note however, that within the church, the world elder is not only a reference to age, but also a position or office of the church. Never felt a humbling of my tithes went to support their gambling problem found a... Exceeding glad theyre all in different places, what does each mean now and insight are on planet. It was one of the more despised positions due to its lowliness: wonder part! 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