Would love to see some stats on that. Is everybody who offends some snowflake doing so out of the own prior trauma leading them to be a hurter of people? Velour wrote: Sproul Jr.s case to have been handled the way it was, and not for the reasons you cited. No-one was there for me either Daisy. Dont imagine anything but being run out on a rail. I am very familiar with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling their behavior. It is surely a complex issue with no single cause. How his alcoholism is handled is a separate issue, I agree, from him being a jerk to people. He was 78. Thank God it was always so late, thus basically no traffic. It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. It matters not if the problem is a sickness or a moral failure. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his father's recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. Unbelievable! So, you feel that Sproul Jr should be fired as pastor but be allowed to sit in a church as a regular member, yes or no? Were already all in agreement, Velour, about getting people with addictions into treatment. So please stop arguing where there is no dispute. My FIL quit drinking, stayed sober 30 years. As word of these charges spread a number of other former members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church also stepped forward and corroborated the allegations, including the fact that some of their own children had been plied with alcohol without their consent. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. But it should be tried. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Mayre Ann (Yardis) Sproul, 50 Clover Drive, Pleasant Hills, passed away Saturday, July 3, 1965. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. (let alone applied in practice?). Remember Ashley Madison? During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. Change). My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. got the functioning of Al-Anon and sponsorship incorrectly? For me these people are PURE EVIL!! Were not just talking about an alcoholic (RC Sproul Jr). How will the church ever be helpful in getting people help if the answer is to just avoid them and to cherry-pick Scripture verses to justify your own lack of love? Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). SEE? Leave him alone! Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. If you think gossip is on the same level, go turn all of the gossipers you know in to the police. I say I because it was just I. ), Mae wrote: Interesting you can say this. . Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. @ Christiane: It seems like I had read he was a wife abuser? So far no response. Sproul Jr. has done. http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/church-england-head-colluded-sex-abuse-48202873. Then as soon as they express repentance (they dont have to show it, they just have to say the word), theyre restored, and everyone else is supposed to show understanding and forgiveness. One of the only reasons I came back to this thread was to add something about your insistence on people getting treatment (treatment outside of a church). In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. Lea wrote: Every person is different. Im just curious, how does a person sitting in a church service every Sunday help to treat someones alcoholism? 2. It wont. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. Ive known some recovering alcoholics to go back to churches and to speak before the entire church about the damage they did to so many peoples lives, as well as make personal amends to people that they have harmed. If he wants church support, hes going to have to change churches, I think. Tolerable and safe is probably the best you can hope for. @ Velour: That being said I think the far more important issue is figuring out some ways of keeping the public safe from him. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: So a married guy being an alcoholic is a justification for using a cheating site? Or for his wife? I am guessing that since took the Pirates job, that money was an issue for him, and my nickel bet is thats behind this book. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. She was saying he should be put out. Julie Anne showed a lack of knowledge about the topic of substance abuse. Very well said. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. RC talks about drinking, suggests that if HE has a problem HE should abstain, but leaves the impression that we should mind our own business about others drinking and abuse. The ideal situation IMHO is to get him out of ministry entirely and get help for his family so they understand alcoholism. Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. He passed out at the wheel. I contacted one of his estranged adult children who told me the name of the church: Pine Hills Church in Fort Wayne. Now to deal with your concerns in a more general sense (and this is where it seems we differ), in my experience most churches arent in any way qualified to deal with alkies. Sproul Sr. will experience MUCH MORE suffering than he is right now. But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? He is living under the supervision of other strong, caring family members who watch over him and he is slowly regaining his ability to function normally, as well as his dignity. your anger is showing, yes. I did read your post, Daisy. @ Claire: That trial had beenscheduled for June 6, 2017. Were not mind readers. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. Theres a lot in the Bible, not just one verse. Sproul, Jr.s case. But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/. Lisa wrote: Rcjr had his license suspended for six months. I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. Im not contesting that. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. Please include what quote you are talking about. More and more articles have been released in the last 15 years containing information from studies saying that anti-depressant medications do not work for most people. This thread was about RC, Jr. and his many abuse issues beyond alcoholism, though. I posted the list about the multi-pronged issues that R.C. From that day forward, he chose not to drink. The lady in the story died of alcoholism. At some point, the alcoholic can drink huge quantities without seeming effect. As recovering alcoholic Steven King put it, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. Hmm. Grief also doesnt usually show hatred towards the deceased spouse. 12-step groups like Al-Anon and Adult Children of Alcoholics also address these issues. Im asking, since you advocate for alcoholics to get non-church treatment AND to be allowed to sit in a pew every week. I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. Sproul, Jr. being a member of a Foursquare Pentecostal Church (from Valeries quoted comment above). It works some of the time. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. has sent more people to churches than churches have ever sent to A.A., just sitting in a pew is a big step for some .. the physical act of coming into what in our Judeo-Christian ethic is sanctuary, a place of safety and peace, yeah, there are times in my life when just sitting there was all I could manage. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. What if we were discussion a DUI as the culmination of years of heavy drinking on the part of your former pastor? And he does say at the end of the article the Bible does not condemn alcohol, and so I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. You have taken this quote out of context . This article sits in the context of many others on TWW documenting the organisation Mr Sproul has built and the ways in which he sees fit to run it. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. Good point, Jeff. I would not doubt it all. All Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish results for vesta ann voorhis. Velour wrote: RC Sproul Jr Had therapy and continues to do so. I take her at her word. any man who drives drunk with his own children in the car has got more problems than just alcoholism, yes. 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